What's Going On? with Shaun
What's Going On? with Shaun is a variety podcast with a marketing lean, but a healthy appetite for conversations about things that make life worth living. Most episodes are about 60 minutes in length and hosted by automotive internet guy and dealer superhero, Shaun Raines. Guests include business executives, entrepreneurs, musicians, enthusiasts, artists, authors and a variety of interesting people.
What's Going On? with Shaun
What's Going On?...with Shaun: Rae Selvey
Trailblazing through the automotive industry, Ray Selvey has navigated a career filled with challenges and triumphs, breaking barriers in a traditionally male-dominated field. Her passion for cars ignited in her youth and has fueled her journey from e-commerce management to becoming a director of sales and general manager. In our latest episode, Ray uncovers the lessons learned from her groundbreaking career and why authenticity and determination are keys to success. She shares how her unique approach to sales has not only paved the way for her but has also inspired others to challenge the status quo.
We also explore the seismic shifts in the automotive sales process driven by technological advancements. Ray recounts the transition from managing sales with note cards to embracing CRM systems and data analytics, highlighting how these tools have revolutionized customer experience. Her reflections on mentorship and the importance of empathy, transparency, and personal accountability offer invaluable insights for sales professionals seeking to thrive in an ever-evolving landscape. As dealerships adapt to digital tools, Ray emphasizes the need for a seamless, customer-centric approach to car buying, ensuring both buyers and salespeople enjoy the process.
Finally, we delve into the critical role of an optimized online presence for automotive dealerships. Ray discusses strategies for enhancing automotive website conversion rates and the importance of providing comprehensive, user-friendly experiences. Her thoughts on leadership, the future of the industry, and the power of networking underscore her commitment to empowering others and fostering a supportive professional community. Join us in celebrating Ray Selvey's remarkable contributions as she shares her vision for a dynamic and innovative automotive future. Connect with her on LinkedIn to gain further insights from her wealth of experience.
Hello and welcome to another episode of what's going on with Sean, a variety podcast grounded in marketing but with an appetite for quality conversations about things that make life worth living. Time is precious, so thanks for tuning in today as we find out what's going on with Ray Selvey. How are you, ray?
Speaker 2:I'm good, Sean. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:Oh boy, this is going to be a great episode. Give me a minute here just to say to the audience Ray has an amazing background in automotive. We've known each other for a long time and her experience is deep in both sales and marketing within the industry. From an e-commerce manager, director of sales, general manager, ray has deep experience from end to end in retail automotive. Kind of just a little piece of her story, because her experience and her mark has been made with service providers like Reynolds and Reynolds, which is where we have a little intersection, although you were there before me, but I got there as soon as I could, not just Reynolds, edmonds, fuse Autotech.
Speaker 3:Well, over a decade it's probably longer, even than that, ray, and you can tell me if I'm wrong but a true diamond among all the coal I say that a lot. In our industry the diamonds are easy to spot. There's not enough of them. Ray is absolutely one of them, a supreme example of somebody who's very well-rounded on both the sales and marketing side of the house. I always learn from your experience, your demeanor and your candor and the way that you treat other people. You're also a super fantastic human and I'm glad that you're my friend. So, ray, welcome to what's Going On with Sean.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being here so happy to be here.
Speaker 3:And, by the way, who is this Ray person? I want to talk to her.
Speaker 2:She's so fun. You had no idea that you are so impressive, Right?
Speaker 3:I was like gosh, that makes me sound awesome. I'm so excited to talk to you. Any chance to talk to you is amazing. I love it and we should have done of people with deep experience, no matter what industry or what they do. I think it's one of the biggest, if not the biggest, differentiator in a lot of scenarios, and you just bring so much of that to the table that I just I love that For the audience. Hey, don't forget, check out Ray easily on LinkedIn. You can go and connect with her on her profile over there. You definitely want to know her. She needs to be in your network, she needs to be part of your people. If you don't know her, the wealth of experience will be a benefit to you for sure, and so let's do this.
Speaker 3:Let's talk a little about your maybe a lot about your career journey. I'm interested and every time I do a what's Going On With Sean, I'm usually asking people a lot about their life and what they're doing in their careers, and especially my automotive friends. So I want to know from you what was that early career experience like, and was there a particular inspiration A lot of people talk about? They just fell into the car business. It was not something they went into. I'm curious to know what was that for you Did. Were you inspired, or how did that happen?
Speaker 2:I was young, I was 19, needed a job. I had also, coincidentally, wrecked my car, so I was absolutely in love with cars. I mean, my dad and I used to play a game drive down the street. I could see a car away in the distance and tell you exactly what it was. You know the trim level usually and so it was a road trip game we would play.
Speaker 2:But I saw an ad for a sales job and I thought, oh my God, I love cars. They give you a car. I could do this until I figure out what I want to do. And so I went and applied and it was in Dallas and it was with the John Eagle. At the time his dad, bob, was, was still running it, but it was the Eagle Dealerships. Yeah, and it was very funny because I spent about three hours arguing with them about why I shouldn't answer phones and be a receptionist and why I shouldn't let me sell cars. And they were like honey, you know why don't you try answering the phones? If you're really sharp, you do well, maybe we'll move you to sales. I'm like I'm not answering phones. You know I can do this. It can't be that hard. And they kept looking at me like I was insulting them or something, and so, anyhow, long story short, three hours later, finally, in frustration, my boss that ended up the guy that ended up being my boss just said look, show up Wednesday 8 am.
Speaker 3:We'll take it from there and to run me off by the end of the first week.
Speaker 2:He said but yeah, it was, it was that's how I got into it. And immediately I mean, they had never hired a woman in sales in like 30 years of business. So immediately I kind of just kind of took off. I mean, I remember you know how they trained me to sell cars and I was like I can't, I'm not gonna do that. And they were like oh, yes, you will. And I was like, ah, okay, but you know, I tried to do it my way and that immediately sort of started resonating, after I got yelled at a lot Around what year was that?
Speaker 2:It was 1989.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just dated myself, didn't I? Yes?
Speaker 3:No, no, no, no, no, no. I just to be sure you're in in a lot of ways, and this is one of the things that I think that you and I have kinship over is, um, you know, in the, in the covered wagons as pioneers, and some of this stuff that happened right yeah.
Speaker 3:So when you drop the hole it's like you. I don't want you to bury that lead that you were among a very small number of people. Maybe, who knows, maybe you were one of the first, if not the first, woman to kind of pioneer your way into those sales roles on the retail side, because in 1989, I don't think I had ever been in a dealership where, like hey, there are women selling and fast forward to 2024, and there are several organizations that are all about the empowerment and inclusion of women in this industry. And here you are, like man, I brought my whole covered wagon all the way across.
Speaker 2:It's great to see it. I got to say, I mean and I've always tried to be a champion of women in the industry and I'll be honest with you, it was not easy. I mean, there was, first of all, there's no HR.
Speaker 2:Back then I mean and yeah the stories right, but uh, the, the, the work was hard. I mean in Dallas. First of all, it's hot, as you know you live there. I mean it's it's so hot and you're wearing, you know, then we had to wear like full, you know, professional business attire and you're just, you know what, on the, on the lot, just standing out there waiting for a customer to drive in and ruining shoes, ruining clothes, tearing your pants or whatever your jack. I mean everything. It was awful. So it wasn't very appealing to a lot of women, but it didn't bother me.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I think it was really hard to get to get women to want to do that, and then the schedules were pretty rough too. But I remember my boss saying to me very, very early on. I was like, oh, I get a weekend day off because in Texas, you know, you had to be closed. You may still, with the blue laws, one day a weekend and then get one floating day off during the week. And I was like, oh, I'm going to take my day off. And my boss was like you're going to do what? And I was like, yeah, I'm going to do.
Speaker 3:And he's like Selby, when you're not here, you're unemployed and I was like oh, oh, okay, and so really we got one day off a week, basically because he encouraged you to work on your day off.
Speaker 2:That schedule was not appealing to a lot of people, much less a lot of women that were sane and unlike me.
Speaker 3:Old school retail yeah, it was crazy. There's still some of that out there. I know there's a lot of people in our industry that always want to paint these pictures of like we've completely revitalized ourselves. We've gone through our own reformation movement in automotive, and some have, but it's not all.
Speaker 2:We've come so far, though, and I think it is an industry now that's appealing to women, and I advocate for that. I think it's great, and I think there's so many more opportunities available in this industry, aside from just being in the dealership, right, and there's, you know, groups and corporate level roles that I think are more appealing too, and I just think it's really great to see diversity of any kind.
Speaker 3:Now that wasn't the case where I started, in texas at least you know for sure, were there moments or mentors, or both, that you could point to that were really influential? Because obviously you know, you know, starting in sales in 1989 in a such a male dominated industry, I think it's clear to anybody that you must have countless stories about things that are like this is not likable, but in the process, what about moments and mentors that were like anybody helping you or championing?
Speaker 2:There were. I mean, being a young girl among a bunch of men, I mean there were people that sort of took me under their wing and said, hey, you know, just stick with me, kid, I'll keep you, you know, keep you safe. And so I appreciated that and it was needed at times, trust me. But I'd say that, like there were two people that stand out to me early in my career, and one was Bob Eagle, john Eagle's dad. He was such a kind man. He used to call me his little moneymaker it was really funny and he'd just be like hey, what can I do for you? What do you need from me? What do you need from me? You know, and I was like that meant a lot and what it taught me was that you know, you, you figure out what struggles your people are having and you help overcome those for them and move them out of the way, whatever it was. And I think that really that really meant a lot to me and taught, taught me a lot.
Speaker 2:I remember he would bring me we used to have these auctions, that in-house auctions, right On the on Fridays, and he would always make a sandwich from the barbecue stuff that was left over and bring it over to me and the guys would get so mad because they weren't allowed to go over there. I mean, you know, call it special treatment, whatever, but there was plenty of treatment that didn't, you know, advocate for me either? But, um, it was really sweet that he would do that. I really appreciated that. So I'd get my barbecue sandwich on fridays every every time from him I love that.
Speaker 3:I love that I did some work for the john. I did some work for the john eagle stores um way back since I've been in texas um it's been a long time, but I worked more with with John's brother, darren.
Speaker 2:Oh, darren was great, he was like my favorite guy.
Speaker 3:He's the first guy I ever knew that had like a standing desk that he made himself and all the sound effects he would do, and we needed some more people like him in the industry. He was just fun guy. I really liked industry. It was just fun, I really liked him.
Speaker 2:We connected a lot and you know what's funny is he was, I mean, here's John and here's Darren. I mean night and day from each other. I really struggled to believe they were brothers initially, right.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:It was clear that John was going to rise to the, you know, the leader of the auto group. But Darren had such interesting insights, I thought, and really had. He just brought such an authentic personality to everything and he was really present a lot. I mean, he was really he was really young then, but really present and I really enjoyed working with him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the kind of the black and white boundaries that most of us see the industry in. He's kind of like nope, it's gray right, more contrary and more like no question everything. Um, yeah, I was. I was found that refreshing about him. So, from retail, um, were there things that happened in that part of your journey that were like more of the like, uh, achievements, that you felt like this is really starting to shape the professional side of your journey? Like Like, and then I guess maybe then when did you start to transition from you know, that sales role into other cause? You've done so many things within the retail and, you know, under the roof of a dealership. When did some of that start to open up and change and you cut, started to see with maybe bigger eyes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think I was really green and young. I mean I remember asking my boss one time like why do all the guys disappear when a policeman drives up on the lot? You know what I mean? And he was like hi, you're funny. You know now I know why, but anyhow it was just those days were crazy and so I didn't spend a ton of time, didn't have an interest in spending a ton of time just standing around talking, or you know, I certainly wasn't a smoker, so I wasn't out smoking out front by the front door. You know, with everybody I wanted something to do always, and so I was the only one that would take the. You know the special five faxes that would come in. Remember those?
Speaker 2:And everybody would be like I'm not interested. And I understood like, first of all, it's just something to do. Second of all, it was something that I kind of I had empathy for those folks and I understood that if you just treat them with transparency and, you know, treat them the way you would want to be treated and help them understand why they're in the situation they're in. They're being told no everywhere, being at that time like ghosted nobody would even call back, you know and help them just really literally break it down for them. Here's why you're in this situation. Here's what you have to do to get out of it. I know you want to buy this car but you can't. Here's the car that you can buy and here's how long it's going to take you to get out of it if you do these steps Right.
Speaker 2:And I started like building this business from these things and having great success with them and, as you know, those were very profitable deals back in the day. So that was really kind of, I think, my first foray out of just the general sales. And I had a great leader. His name was Luther Hensley. He was such a great mentor to me.
Speaker 2:He was just this scraggly little fella, who had like one hair that would just float around on the top of his head and he was just this beloved guy and he was a crack up, but he was really hard, I mean hard. He would scream race out, come to the sales office, over the PA all the time and everybody was like your dad's calling you, you know, and I would just go march in there and he'd be like where are you? I'm like I was with a customer. For goodness sakes, you know, I would think God, I sound like Luther, you know, not not to the way that he would do it, but like I would. I would just be like, oh my gosh, I owe him so much. It's showing me kind of how there's a personal accountability that you have to have right in any role but in a sales role and in a dealership, and you have to follow steps.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that there's not gray, like we're talking about, but you have to follow steps and build a concrete process. And so through through him, in a really strange way, I learned a lot about like being really rigid on the process and making sure that it's followed and and building your business that way. And I often he's no longer with us, but I often thought back on it, you know would call him and just go gosh. It drives me crazy to say this, but thank you, I learned so much from you.
Speaker 3:You mentioned the magic word that we still need more of in our industry, and it's accountability. Um, so many people don't even uh ever get a good mentor or a good uh example of somebody who has learned that you know the accountability side, and yeah, I think that's, that's great, I mean, it's interesting. So I'm curious to know, uh, all these years that have gone by since the beginning of that part of your career, and then today, when you look at sales marketing too, on the retail side, what do you think are some of the biggest things that have changed from back then to kind of where we are now?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I think obviously, technology right, I would kill for some of the technology today who have had it back then. I mean, we were managing our business on note cards. You know that we would just wear out, though they would fray all over, you know.
Speaker 3:I mean, there was a time when we didn't have CRMs.
Speaker 2:No, I remember how excited I got when we got this first CRM and we used a free one. Remember the I can't remember the name of it now, but it was one that you could get for free and I loved it because it was something that wasn't a note card, you know, and and and there was follow-up in there and all this stuff, but it was great. But I think technology is one, but also, you know, I think to me it's been very apparent from literally the day I started selling cars that you, you can do this in a positive. It doesn't have to be a horrible experience for anybody for the customer or for the person who's selling the car, anybody involved in that process. And when you stay focused on that and build that into everything that you do, like that's been a consistent all the way through um and then really now having the technology and the usage of data to really just work smart and not hard anymore so many things and um and really um, just dial your business and I think, regardless, be it in a dealership or in, you know, a b2b vendor role or whatnot and I think that's very exciting to see that and to really see those things make a difference, I think has been fun.
Speaker 2:Going back to the special five faxes that came in. That was, I think, for me, the reason when the internet came about. When you and I sort of crossed paths at Carpoint back in the day, that was something that just clicked immediately for me because I had already been doing it through this fax process with special finance right. I knew there was a way to deal with these customers specifically. I knew their expectations and I knew that you had to sort of set the stage correctly for that. So when the internet came about I was like, oh my god, this is this, is it. I get it, know it just don't. I mean. A light bulb went off and I ran with it and and I thought you know at the time that was such a fun introduction into our industry, right, and it kind of matched what I had wanted to do, which was sell the car the way the customer wants to buy it and process wise Right, and, and I think one of the things that I didn't crystallize it at the time but I knew that if I was ever given the chance to take control of the processes in a dealership, that I wanted to do it that way and to build it. In a way, I had a vision kind of on how I would do that and and when, given the opportunity.
Speaker 2:You know, here in Portland it was part of Asbury at the time, but it was Thomas and Otto group I had, you know, we had 17 stores and I had internet departments in all of them and they were all flailing because they weren't being supported by the in-store management. And so when they asked me what it was going to take for us to hit 200 cars a month, I said, well, I'll tell you right now, it's going to be consolidation. And they're like great, what do you want? You know, let's go look at this building down the road and it was a used car building on the nissan lot and, um, I was like we walked through it and this is how, like little I was expecting from them. They're like what do you think? And I'm like this is a dump, I'm not gonna work in this. Like crap.
Speaker 3:Environment they're like no, no, we're gonna remodel it and I'm like seriously.
Speaker 2:And they're like, yeah, we'll probably 200 grand budget. And I'm like, seriously, and they're like, yeah, we'll go like probably 200 grand budget. And I'm like I'll take it. And then I just was like we're doing it the way I want to do it though. And they're like, yeah, how about it Sweet? I mean I remember a big fight to get Reynolds at every workstation right For my 20 salespeople.
Speaker 2:I mean a huge fight for that. Two sales managers I wanted two finance the very first internet store. It was 2001 when we opened it Wow, late 2001. And ran it successfully. I mean well over, you know, 300 grand a month and gross and just highly efficient. I mean stores. Come down and see why we had an appointment Sorry about that Appointment board.
Speaker 2:That was floor to ceiling every weekend, you know, and they had maybe 10 appointments for the day and it was just all process driven and everyone loved being there and they were helping each other. There was no like, well, I talked to your customer, so I get half that deal. It wasn't like that. It was very supportive and everybody was working together and cross selling all the brands and it was just. When I look back, that was. That was one of the things that I enjoyed most and I think I probably went off from your question, but it it was fun. So then also, when I got promoted to a GM of a store, I kind of brought some of the same principles right and really allowed the customer process to be the focus and just obsessed with the customer process, and I think that's going to allow our success there as well.
Speaker 3:But I am such a fan, a such a fan of people like you that that get the consumer right yeah and in b2b marketing.
Speaker 3:I'm always especially nowadays with my little business that I run now. I'm always talking to people about the business to business side of marketing and that business where you sell a product or service to the dealer like two businesses and you know businesses with the end user. I still think about the ideal customers that I want to talk to and that other businesses are wanting to talk to. You're you just described what I love so much about people like you in automotive that get what the consumer who's shopping for and wanting to buy a car. They've never wanted the whole concept of people wanting to. You know, I'm going to buy a car online, what eBay brought to everybody, what Cars Direct was trying to bring to everybody, if like I don't want to deal with the dealership.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, all the way up until, okay, let's have a gold rush of digital retailing tools yeah, leading up into covid and then every dealership pretty much buys one, and then we're like, oh man, most of them are garbage and and and most of that is because they still were critically missing the fact that the consumer doesn't want you around until they tell you that they need you to finish or to answer the more deeper level questions. Now, that isn't every single car buyer, but oftentimes people that are in charge of how's the process going to be built and how are we going to execute it. They just always miss out on that. They still maybe come from that older school in our industry.
Speaker 3:It used to be well, we can control everything about the product, the price of the product. You have to come to us to even see it. You want to drive it? It's an expensive thing. Even see it, you want to drive it. It's an expensive thing. And because of the control, oftentimes that meant well, the process is going to be horrible for the consumer. And what you were just you could tell excited and how much you loved that is. You were given the open book to say let's do it one way and you clearly had these awesome results. Do Do you have any thoughts on like why are we now in 2024 and there are still like not hundreds, thousands of dealerships that still don't 100% get that or execute it? Do you think it's part of well? I would just. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:I'll be honest with you, and I used to laugh and say, well, that just gives me job security, right, but it's honestly, I still don't get it. I don't, I don't get it. Now, on the other side of that, they're the dealerships that are getting purchased by the consolidators or the other larger groups that do get it right, because there's no room for that in the marketplace anymore and I think covid did help accelerate that.
Speaker 2:But going back to what you said a minute ago, you know customers don't want to avoid the dealership, they want to avoid the bs. I think we've we've seen that time and time again in this whole evolution of purchasing a car. I mean there are some people that simply do want to do it purely online, never step in, and we had that in 2001. We had folks that would call us, work with us online. We'd do all the documents, we'd put them on the phone with F&I ahead of time and let them go through their interview and try to sell stuff, and then we'd FedEx paperwork and ship the car. That's fine. It's just a tiny number of people that wanted to do that. What they really wanted was for you to tell them that you were going to meet them where they wanted to be. You're going to give them the information up front. You're going to be transparent, you're going to make this easy. And then they were excited to come in and pick up the car where you were and have a pleasant experience. That's all they're looking for and it's unbelievable to me, after all of these years, how many leaders in dealerships and retail automotive don't really still get that or lead with that Right, and there are some that do get it but they're not really paying attention to what's happening in their stores, which is still the disconnect but we don't.
Speaker 2:I'm a strong advocate for the tools that are there today to. I mean, look at my time at Fuse right. I went there because I was like God. This technology could fulfill everything that I wanted to see happen, right if used properly and complete. But the online process you have to give customers the tools to figure out what they want to purchase and is it going to fit what their budget is or what their needs are online and get an idea of it, then send that in and have it be seamless and they just pick up where they left off in store and then, if you do that and you meet their expectations, they will come in and pick up the car, assuming it's. You know you're not dropping the ball left and right. But I think what many dealerships are doing, coming out of COVID particularly, it became a hey, here's what we've got, take it or leave it, because if you don't, somebody else will, and I've got people lined up.
Speaker 2:That fog hasn't cleared. I'm finding in this time that COVID has disappeared where you know so many dealerships are still these things now and some and some of the companies out there that are really hand delivering you what could be an absolutely complete deal. All you gotta do is pick up the baton and finish it, and yet you drop the baton and it just baffles me how that's happening. But I still like to answer your question. I don't get why so many today but they're not going to be around. I don't think, and I hate to say that, because no one's a bigger advocate for retail automotive dealerships than me. I mean, there are a lot of us out there, but I love a dealership and I love going in one and quickly, like you can assess, you know you've been in enough to do it too. You walk in and you very quickly know is this a well-run ship, well run ship or not, and where the faults are and where they aren't, and what's going on.
Speaker 2:I mean I sat in a dealership not long ago and just looked around and I was like oh, you know, you're just looking all over identifying all these things and and it's fun to me and it's so fun to get the opportunity to talk about very simple fixes for those things too, but you don't. It falls on deaf ears sometimes still, and it's just baffling.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know who should be credited for it, but somebody at some time said no one likes to be sold, but everyone likes to buy.
Speaker 3:They do, yeah, and it feels like that statement alone is a pretty great guiding principle that maybe should be said to your entire dealership, especially your customer-facing salespeople. Anybody that's really having anything to do with the customer experience is to remind them. No one wants to be sold, including the people that are being told you don't want to be sold yourself. Boy, isn't it great when you buy something and then when you just help somebody buy, it might mean step one through six. I don't even need to be here, right, like I don't need to be around. All the information's out there. It isn't 19. I used to tell people this example all the time.
Speaker 3:The Ford Bronco wasn't redesigned just in 2020 or whatever it was. It was redesigned in 1978 as well. It went away in the 70s from the box style Bronco, which now it looks like again, and that 1978 Bronco my dad fell in love with. Well, what was the experience like in 1978 to see it television ad? Okay, well, I want more information about it. Okay, well, I got to go physically into a dealership to get a printed brochure, which were really nice thicker stock paper. Looking at all these pictures, that's the experience that happened in the Raines household when I'm just a whippersnapper and my dad's in love with this vehicle's getting all this information. But how he had to get the information right, it was the. It was the tv ad that made him like, oh wow, okay, cool, I'm interested, but if I want more information I gotta go to the dealership and get that. He got that information, keeps on doing his research and then makes a purchase decision. But there was a. It was forced. That was the only way that that experience could happen.
Speaker 3:Today, in this way, pretty much since the internet grew up and maybe not in 2001, when it took four days to upload one large image because no one knew how to compress its file size Right, upload one large image because no one knew how to compress its file size. But today, certainly in the last call it 15 years, at least, it's not that you can find everything you want, and we have put that on steroids to the point where we should be able to tell people all the time just remember, these people don't want you to sell them anything. They want you to help them buy this thing that they probably are already very interested in and they might be in love with. So you mentioned a little bit about some of the technologies.
Speaker 3:I'm curious to know if you have thoughts on how dealers should be leveraging some of the new things and when I say new, that might be something that's been available for the last five years, because to me there are technologies. It happens in every industry. But I always say for dealers, I feel bad for them because it's been on such a rapid trajectory for so long, really since the internet and a little bit before it, that dealers cannot keep up with it as fast as it starts to pour onto them. So with that are there technologies, whether they were just unveiled this year or within the last few years, that you think, man, every dealer should be using some of these things to kind of get ahead, maybe to provide the right experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think we just touched on one to me that I think is critically important. Which one you choose is. We can't get into that. Probably it'll be a long conversation, but having the ability to not just have a calculator that's fake what I call calculations on how to purchase a car, what you're going to pay for a car, having a true, genuine, like tool that helps the customer. Let me back it up Deciphering the different trim levels these days and the different features on vehicles and whether the vehicle you're looking at truly has the features that you're looking for, can be really difficult.
Speaker 2:I mean. So having a website and an online business that really helps the customer be able to quickly figure out I think I want this which trim level is going to give me those features that I know I want, and be able really to understand and differentiate that. And I know the philosophy was always oh well, let's just give them enough and then that way they have to call the dealership to help get clarity. Bad plan, that's just a bad plan, it's outdated, right, but navigation and I like the ability to serve content up to the customer so they don't have to go digging for it, because today they're not going to dig for long right? So if you're not working with a system that allows you to push to them what you're able to identify that they want or are looking for, you're going to be at the, at the back of the, at the back of the you know bus or whatever already like. So you're starting in a in I'd say a negative, but from there then having everything flow well. And I mean I'm not saying websites are where everything starts and stops, but that's where, when all of the marketing efforts come together, a customer's looking at you first. There they're not coming to your store. So having that be as important as you would make your showroom literally without clunk, without clutter. Get that straightened out, because there are still so many websites you go to and, god forbid. You go to a mobile website right and try to look at vehicle inventory or anything specific there, and there's just all this stuff that you can't sort through and the attention span today or the willingness to do that is nil. So have a very clean like online presence that focuses on trying to serve up the content that you can identify the customers looking for, and there are a lot, of, a lot of availability for that sort of resource Then from there, having key tools on there that will help you, like a digital retailing tool, like we talked about a minute ago.
Speaker 2:I do believe that's important. That's going to get the customer down the path of going and I'm not talking about one that's just a lead generator, that you're wasting your time there and you're losing customers but having one that genuinely helps them build what they think they're looking for and then can seamlessly get in touch with you to finish that process and get accurate information. You know through that process on what it's going to cost them to own that car, and then that gives you, once they've done that, the opportunity to be the consultant that you know you need to be. But I feel like today, so many customers are consuming so much information about all of the vehicles and I'll tell you, when I started selling cars, it was really easy.
Speaker 2:There were only a couple of luxury lines. You know like two domestic and you know two import, and then you know a couple of other. You know things available, import wise and certain classes of cars, and that was it. Now there are, I mean, every manufacturers in every segment and they have sometimes two vehicles in every segment. It's crazy the, the variety that's out there. So I see the sales people and the dealerships role is really trying to help the customers navigate through all this. Really, it's not. It's no longer high. Welcome to it's. Hey, what are you trying to do? What? What are you looking for? How can I help you figure that out and do it quickly and accurately for your needs and then move into some transparent conversations about what it's going to take to purchase that?
Speaker 3:I love that you mentioned how important it is to make sure that your website is set up for you to win right. Yeah, that your website is set up for you to win right. Yeah, it, it.
Speaker 3:I'm baffled by it as well, because so much money is spent to get one person to that website right, yeah, a ton, yeah, and so then, once you get there and for the most part we really, I think, let all of the website providers kind of slide with how abysmal conversion rates have been on automotive website providers forever and they're always. They never really talk about it, but a lot of them have and continue to do things to try to improve conversion rates At least I think they do. But that, you know, 2%-ish or sub 2 percent number has been pretty much the same since I mean I think it was trevor was doing sites just before cobalt or cobalt bought them. You know most people that, like you and I that have been in it for all forever, would say, well, cobalt was kind of the first you know substantial website provider. So, okay, fair enough, but there was. I just can't remember for sure if it was trevor technologies, but but I think it was.
Speaker 3:That said, from that era all the way to today, there's just what are we doing with the website piece.
Speaker 3:But I love that you shared all that you did, because the reality is is a lot of dealers should think that the website is the environment where you can't afford not to win right and maybe winning part of that is better conversion optimization, but, to your point, it very much includes well, you better know what tools you should have on there so that you can provide that experience that allows somebody to go way down the journey path or the path without you.
Speaker 3:And then the right moments where they pull up Because I say this all the time to people when I'm talking about digital retailing there are components within a well-built tool like that that might actually be the starting point for somebody. For example, I've got a car I think I want to trade in, and so somebody might start with oh, what's that like? And if they started some over here trying to get a trade evaluation, are you properly then saying, hey, stay in this, I'll buy? We're not in it at all. You just keep on going. Now that you've got this information about your trade and what we would be willing to give you for it, and now that what is associated to what? Well, maybe financing, or I want to lease this thing, all the things that you're trying to present to somebody, but it's still so messy it is.
Speaker 2:It's disjointed in so many ways and I think what is I tell dealers all the time when I talk to them.
Speaker 2:Go through this experience yourself, really, Because there are way more turn-offs in your most important storefront than there are turn-ons really, and use it from a customer's perspective and really see if this thing that you want to add adds any benefit, because I can promise you most of it doesn't. And I'm not talking about like cutting vendor options out, because I've been, I'm on the vendor side most often in this recent part of my career and you know, the last 15 years or so. There are important pieces that need to be built into a website, but some of it, or some of the pieces that they have that go along with the offering, can be more of an annoyance and a deterrent than anything. So you really have to scrutinize anything that you're putting you know capabilities to do on your website and make sure that it's flowing well. Like I'm talking about that internet store that we had with Thomas and back in the day Back then in 2001,. We were getting, you know it was like well over, and this was 2001, mind you. So you're going to laugh at the number now, but we were so excited about, you know, over 10,000 uniques monthly back then. Right, it was huge and we had a 10% conversion rate on the website back then and people would come like I remember it was a dealercom website back in the early days for them, and I remember our rep was there all the time. They would bring people in and they were interviewing us. What are you doing? Blah, blah, blah. Well, you make the path as clear and concise as possible for the customer to get the answers that they're looking for. It's really simple, transparent I that they're looking for. It's really simple, transparent. I'm not trying to simplify it and like, make it seem like you're an idiot if you don't do that, but it's true.
Speaker 2:You have to think about, if you're on this site and you're navigating to get to where you want to get, what do you want on that path and what do you need easily accessible to you? So I remember when I told my dealer we were going to put pricing online. I mean, first of all, I had to go through a fight to get us to be able to give it out on the phone and then emails, right. But I won that battle and um, and then it was we're going to put it online because I know they want it. And it was like oh no, you're not. And I'm like we will, yes, we will. So we had the othercom build that functionality for us back. I think it was 2002, when we built that Um and then we turned it on with a lead capture, obviously, like, if you want the actual today's, like the selling price, not just the msrp but the selling price, click here, we're going to give this to you, you know. And then you just give us your info and then you get a real price that you can bring in and purchase the car for. And I remember the chance of the store were not happy with that, but at the end of the day we were selling, selling.
Speaker 2:I mean, I remember not to keep dating myself, but we had a GM of the Honda store who is very different. I loved him. He's no longer with us, but he came over. He was like you know what I got? To take these odysseys away from you. My team is very upset. And I was like what do you mean take the odysseys away from my team? And he's like, well, you guys are selling too many of them. And I'm like, okay. And he's like any, I'm, you know.
Speaker 2:The assumption was the internet is giving cars away, right. So, um, I was like, okay, kenny, well, um, come back tomorrow, I'm gonna run some reports and we'll sit down and we'll go through this. So he came back the next day, we went through this report. I was so excited to pull it out. Um, it showed that the internet was not only selling them faster but more profitably than his floor sales team and his fleet team. So guess what came out of that? What came out of that was him taking them completely away from his fleet sales department. They got to sell none, and then we got allocated 80% of the incoming inventory and I was like there you go, thank you. And so what we were doing proved was working right and that we weren't compromising our profitability or anything like that. And but it was all just an assumption or misconception. I mean, you know, we all remember when it was just a fad there for a while, right, but you hit.
Speaker 3:You hit on like three buried leads. I cannot let this go without recalling three things that you said in there, which are, and, by the way, never. Well, you can if you want to, because you're just a nice person, but apologize, for I'm aging myself or whatever it's the. We have so many, I won't name any names. I'll just say our industry is so full of all these newer people that are addicted to looking at themselves in the mirror and attention and they're absolutely like teethless tigers. They're like, oh, I'm awesome, look at me. Whatever, you're the perfect example of somebody who has actually been there, done that and still doing it from a perspective that all these newer people that come in that really don't have any respect for the pioneers that already, like we've already been there, we've already been talking about this for 20 years. Thanks for showing up the reason why that's important is.
Speaker 3:You just talked about these three things. One you meant, not in any particular order, but here's the actual sale price. This is what you can buy it for. And actually disclosing that to customers Customers, even though we don't like it on the retail side. I love it actually, but I get it. Gms and sales managers, gsms and stuff they're like I don't like that, and I know why they don't like that, but it doesn't mean that that can't work. Customers love it though. So if you're really always wanting to provide a great customer experience, that's what you were doing, and oh, by the way, that's one of the things that people love the most about Tesla. The price is the price. You were way ahead of your time on that point. You're also were way ahead of your time, and maybe even you helped dealercom, which a word they used for a long time was seamless. They used to talk about their websites as seamless. What you were educating them on in terms of what are you doing here?
Speaker 3:you were showing them this is a seamless experience that customers love.
Speaker 3:That's why we're kicking so much ass yeah and then the other thing you mentioned without mentioning the word is you were providing. Something that everyone likes to talk about and has for the last handful of years is we need to take all the friction out of the process, right, this frictionless experience. And so what you were talking about doing before maybe anybody else was really doing was a seamless process, was removing all the friction, and you were doing it because you knew that that's what customers wanted, and you proved it because you guys sold so many use the odyssey example that it's making the other departments like, oh, you need to give us some of those, and then you're like hold on just you know what.
Speaker 3:let's just have a little coffee break and come back and talk about this tomorrow when I can show you all these reports that we're annihilating all of this and if we really want to run smoothly, high profit moving our vehicles instead of letting them sit around too long.
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter. We're not going to give any one department credit over the other. We're going to actually give the department that's actually moving these vehicles profitably the way we want, and you guys were providing probably a better customer experience than that traditional experience. Boom like oh my god, oh, that is so amazing.
Speaker 2:Hopefully you're like, yeah, yeah, that was because that's incredible, that's it was fun, I'll tell you that much, and I and I it's one of the things I'm proud of was that we I mean I do feel like we pioneered a lot of things there, and you know, I mean you and I going back to Carpoint for sure that was pioneering. You know sending out discs so they could download their leads. You know dial up and download their leads. I mean I still laugh about that.
Speaker 3:That that's what we had to do, like walking that through a lot of dial up and download things, the way that we had to even get access to, to, to inventory data back then. Oh, my goodness, Was Dale Dale Beneer? Was he there in the data team when you were still there? I can't remember. All the same, if the same people were there but Dale and. Karki were the two data guys when I was in that office.
Speaker 2:It was. It was really fun. I remember going to work for AutoNation. I want to come back to something here in a minute. But going to work for AutoNation early on I mean when they were taking their stores online and and that's when I left Reynolds was to go work for them, right, because I was the I got solely responsible for that account. I was like traveling around trying to set up internet departments in their stores. I was like you need people in the districts to do this. So they ended up hiring them and offering me the role initially. But in Texas I took it but we had, you know, I mean they had ADP and Reynolds and Reynolds people onsite in Florida, right At the, at the AutoNation headquarters, and they would do whatever they wanted. I mean they were customizing everything for them. But Bob Brockman's old company before he bought Reynolds I can't remember the name of it- now but tried to block it out.
Speaker 2:It was such a difficult company to work with, but I had several stores in North Texas that were, so it was called the Basin Auto Group and they were using those systems. So you know, autonation would have typically been like hey, I'm going to buy out all these contracts, dump the system on the front porch and somebody can come get it. You know and I'm putting in what I want they were locked in. I mean, you know, bob Brockman's contracts are infamous in our industry, right?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, they were locked in.
Speaker 2:But we were trying to take our inventory and put it online right. I'm having enough battle trying to educate the GMs and all the people on why we're doing this and why they need to cooperate. But we had a company that was servicing us that wouldn't even let us access our own inventory and data right. So corporate could get into any store and get everything they wanted all over the country. But in North Texas we had these stores that we couldn't do this in, so we were unable to put our inventory online for those stores. But we also, like they couldn't even just something as simple as accounting. They couldn't run reports from corporate, so every night each store had to download all the reporting that was needed and FedEx it to corporate every day.
Speaker 2:I mean that was just so impractical but, like I mean, today, inventory is key, but and's everywhere and you should have easy access to getting your inventory aligned.
Speaker 2:But, going back to two things that we were talking about a minute ago, that I forgot to sort of wrap up, and that was you know, the website is important and there are so many things now available with AI that you can incorporate, where you can know so much about your customer with the data pools that we have right, and then with AI and you really can, if you work with the right companies, you're pushing the content that's related to this customer out there to them on your website, instead of just letting them hunt and peck for it.
Speaker 2:And if there's any advice I have for dealers, it's start exploring that, because those are the ones that are going to win in the content. I mean in the customer race. Right, customers get to a website and it's immediately overwhelming to them and they're coming in from goodness knows what you know paid search ad or whatever directional they're coming in on. And when they hit getting to, is this car equipped with what the heck I want it to be equipped with? And what exactly is the difference between this car equipped with what the heck I want it to be?
Speaker 2:equipped with and what exactly is the difference between this car and this car? You know, trim level or package wise or whatever. And then what's it going to take to purchase that car? The faster you can make that path for them, the better. And making decisions about things like marketing, for example, the first thing I do like at Edmunds, the first thing I taught my team to do was when a dealer saying we're going to cancel your service it sucks.
Speaker 2:Okay, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but before we talk about that, let's go look at what your customer experience is on your website. We're dropping people in your website or we're driving people to you. They're looking at your inventory and they can't figure out what's on this card like at all, whereas this dealership that's doing really well with us. You can sell very quickly and easily what's on this car, right? So the merchandising and the depth of data, um about the features and prioritizing the right features and not having you know. Um, I mean, there's some silly things that we include and you know, when you do a vin explosion, you're just like, oh, my god.
Speaker 2:And that's the first, second, third, fourth thing listed, like where's carplay? Where's, you know, the heated seats? Where are those things. Oh, let's pull those up to the top of the list. I mean, and making sure that again, quickly and easily, a customer can go oh nope, this is the one. It's got what I'm looking for and and making the effort to do that. But don't throw you know, marketing sources out or anything like that, until you figured out you know, when that source drives something to your website, what's your website doing to turn that customer on or off and if that's not humming along very smoothly.
Speaker 2:Figure that out before you go throwing things out. You know, with the bathwater if you will great advice, really great advice.
Speaker 3:I just all marketing works. It works, somehow it. But oftentimes how we define well what it, how did it work?
Speaker 2:it doesn't always mean the expectations of it right.
Speaker 3:So what it does sometimes is informs you of, like this is not something we want to continue to do, or we don't want to do it this way, and so I think that's great encouragement and really good advice. I want to ask, before we completely get to the end of this around team building, because you've spent a lot of time in your career and I have a couple questions about relative to that one I'm curious to know what qualities you think are really essential for leaders and we could call them in the automotive industry. But just in general, what do you think are the essential qualities of good leaders in our, in our industry?
Speaker 2:you know, I think I mean empowering is a big thing. It's. It's, I think, the basis of what. What I try to do right Is to empower a team and that means that you have to, you know you have to. You have to provide them strong communication and clear expectations and you gotta be adaptable, um, and supportive. And and I know those may seem sort of simple or cliche but when you're obsessed, like with the customer experience, take that same obsession, obsessed like with the customer experience, take that same obsession and apply it to the employee experience. Right, and just be a really authentic leader with them, where they know that you have their back and you're going to charge through and inspire them through whatever you're going through, right.
Speaker 2:I mean take example of, like how some dealerships dealt with the CDK disaster that we just went through, versus some that just flew right through it. You know what was the difference there? A lot of it was leadership Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And how those leaders were just like we're going to make. You know, come on, team, we've got this and here's what we're going to do. Here's a process we've got figured out to get through it. Here's, here's how we're going to pivot, you know, and then and then rallying the team and leading them through it versus, you know, panicking and not communicating and not being adaptable and not not being transparent either. You know, so I don't know, I mean, I don't have a like a really cool cliche like this is exactly what these, these need to be.
Speaker 2:You know qualities for a leader today, but I do believe that having a clear vision and then supporting the team to all get on board with and get to that vision is just really important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no. I like that I don't think there's any right or wrong answer. I'm just curious. Yeah, mainly because I just I love your depth of experience.
Speaker 2:It's I think it's a good thing to ask somebody like you, because you're qualified um, I mean, I can't forget that one right you have to build trust and then you have to maintain it, because these you do what you say you're gonna do and, um, and always have their you know best interests at heart yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3:Um, so, as you look towards the future, what are things that you still want to accomplish, what are things that you still plan? Things that are like you know maybe you're in the front row of activity and maybe other things you're like I still want to. What are your thoughts there? What does the future look, look like? What are some of the things you're still wanting to get done?
Speaker 2:I think, for for me, I am so intrigued by you know, I mean I remember you'll be able to remember datium, right, remember, back then I mean that was the first sort of foray into, like, usage of data in auto industry and I was so geeking out on it back then, and I'm so happy to see that there are all these data darlings now, you know, and everybody's like into data and looking at how to really use it and all that. I'm like, oh my God, that's awesome. Thank you for that. We're here and there's so much more we can do with that, right, and so I'm really into that. And and how AI is transforming our business and really, I mean I've had some exciting calls in the last two weeks with some folks that are creating some incredible things that are going to sort of turn our industry upside down, I think in a positive way, though. As far as the customer experience goes, or you know the validity of the process, you know that we're offering to a customer if that makes any sense, but I just really want to find a home where I can feel good about what we're offering.
Speaker 2:But, you know, solving real problems for dealers. I mean, that's something that I've always wanted to do, regardless of what you know, if it was selling advertising and managing teams that are selling advertising, it's not, you're not solving massive problems in the world but I would always coach my teams and and myself I'd be like, ok, okay, thanks for letting me in, let's dig. Hey, this is great, this is what we got to offer. But let's look at this over here. I see you've got this going on. I see you've got that going on.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're having problems with your CR. Let's see what we can do. Use them all. Let's sit down and let's talk about what you found them and I say that all the time. I'm sure people get tired of hearing it, but it's true. It's just something that I have a great passion for is solving real problems for dealers and having a part in that right, a part in be it, you know, building a team of people that are going to go out and offer these products, and if it's a client success part as well, where you're running a team that's also owning that relationship and enhancing that dealer's usage and making them, you know, a best in class user of whatever your offering is. That is something that I just love and I'm passionate about and I hope to be able to do again soon.
Speaker 3:I have no doubt that that will absolutely be the case. I did want to ask you before I do my closing remarks is there anything else, just in general, that you kind of want to share? I have a few fun questions here at the end that are very quick answers, but you have the floor here before I close this down.
Speaker 2:You know, gosh, you put me on the spot. I feel like it makes me feel you know, gosh, you put me on the spot.
Speaker 3:I feel like it makes me feel you know, I don't, I don't know I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't ever feel like I have some earth shattering you know thing to share with folks, but I think, for for me, there are so many people choosing to get into automotive for the first time instead of falling into it right, and I think that excites me like it excites me for the future of our industry. It excites me to see um of our industry. It excites me to see I mean, I went to an ADA Academy when no one really knew what it was Right and it was really. I've just found out. Not long ago I couldn't remember what class number I was in. I was in class 39. Right, so again, dating myself, but it was. It was so eye opening to me and it really, I feel like, cracked my brain open on so many things that I didn't know to look at or understand, to really excel in this business or to see how a dealership should excel. And when you're excelling at the dealership level in automotive, then if you're doing it right, your customers are excelling as well, if that makes sense, right. So you're building brand, you're building a lifetime value there with everybody that you touch, be it in fixed or variable, and I love seeing all of these people coming in and getting educated to.
Speaker 2:I do believe that this industry is going to be obsessed with customer experience, right Like Amazon, or like you know, I mean Amazon's coming into it.
Speaker 2:I had the fortune of interviewing with them actually and it didn't come together, but it was about you know there, there it was a biz dev role for you know their new product, and I remember they asked me what, what do you think it's going to take to sell this to dealers? You're not going to have to sell this to dealers. I'm sorry, you know they're like that's what we think, but we're not sure they're going to do it that but it's so. It's so great to see so many really investing in their people and becoming obsessed with their employee experience and then investing in the customer experience, and when you're obsessed with those two things, you can't go wrong. You really can't. I mean, it brings it together and it makes it a place that people want to do business and they want to continue to do business, and I think it's really I'm not trying to say that automotive isn't complex, but it really is that simple. I mean, if you really look at it at the fundamental level that way.
Speaker 3:I love it. I love it. I used to have a lot of questions that I don't know I thought were fun, but people were like, don't ask me those questions that I don't know I thought were fun. But people were like, don't ask me those questions that I'm not going to ask. I'm going to make it more simplified and I'll give you an example of one. Okay, so you have to choose what animal on the merry-go-round you are and what song plays when your merry-go-round goes around.
Speaker 3:I used to ask people that when I was hiring for creative jobs, to see if they could even answer it and how fast they would. But you don't have to answer that question. I'll give you some easier ones as we close out the episode. What's your favorite color?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think I gravitate to green. For sure. I don't know what it is. I love that color I always have. Yeah, there's a version of it in my office here behind me.
Speaker 3:I see that. I see that. It looks like the color of my first house in Shoreline, washington. It was seafoam green with white trim. Yeah, oh, shoreline yep vinyl siding uh favorite food anything pretty much.
Speaker 2:I mean, I love food. I do, clearly I love food, but, um, I think if I, if I was having a last meal, you know, um it would be you're gonna laugh at this it would be the uh, like pra rum, peanut sauce, thai food, yes, okay okay, I love it.
Speaker 3:I could eat it all day long.
Speaker 2:Favorite movie oh gosh, that's all. That's a tough one, sean. Um, we, we consume movies. I love movies. I think they're great escape and they make me think about a lot of different things. But, uh, one of the and you're gonna disagree, I'm sure, but one of my and you're going to disagree, I'm sure, but one of my all-time favorites is this show called. There's a movie called Fried Green Tomatoes and I don't know what it is about that, but I still watch it. I cry, I laugh, it makes me feel good inside. I just love that movie. I don't know why.
Speaker 3:It's been a long time since I've seen it, but similar, um, like depth, um, I've always loved. I don't know if it's my number one favorite movie, but it's definitely in my top five, is Terms of Endearment that's another one. Oh my gosh yeah the, the acting, the cast, it's just. It shreds you multiple times like that'd be up there I'd say that could be easily tied with mine. Yeah, that's a good one okay, how about a favorite band or song?
Speaker 2:okay. So favorite band ever and when I do the rare karaoke appearance, it is um. It is a song by formerly known as the dixie chicks. Um, but the chicks yeah okay yeah, you know what I mean, hey, I love them, I love their spirit and and them and their music. But I think they're incredibly talented.
Speaker 2:But in Dallas I remember when they would play on the corner on the street down in the west end wow and we would go down there, you know, to stomp around and get into trouble and as youngsters and um, and I remember they'd be on the corner and I'd just be like, oh, we'd stop and we'd throw money in their little guitar case and just listen to them and dance on the corner. It was so fun very, very creative.
Speaker 3:Um, I remember from because growing up in church I heard the song I'll Fly Away a million times and when they creatively put that into Sin Wagon, um, I was like that is so creative, like just yeah, very, very creative. Artists Love it.
Speaker 2:That's like you were talking about earlier mashups.
Speaker 3:I know, I know You're giving me some thoughts. Well, thank you so much for your time, all of the insights, everyone listening and or watching the episode. Don't forget, go connect with Ray on LinkedIn, follow her work there. You won, you won't you? One you won't regret that. It's just good to have people in your circle and in your network that have lots of experience and that are already kind of wired and calibrated to be helpful. And this episode's been nothing but you sharing all of these examples of your accomplishments and things that you've done. But it's all in this package of the spirit of like, let's get better, let's improve, let's empower people, let's have a big tent, let's keep growing forward All the things that you shared throughout this whole episode. It's just a testimony of why people would be foolish not to want to add you to part of their network. So, thanks again. I really appreciate the time For the audience. Well, guess what? Now you know what's going on with Ray Self.
Speaker 2:I love it. Thanks, it's been fun. Thanks for having me, sean. It's been a joy. We'll be right back. Outro Music.